In just a few short years, how cities and regulators engage with shared mobility companies (and vice versa) has changed. Shared Mobility Strategies’ Pete Gould helps promising new mobility providers ensure they understand the needs and values of the public sector.
Cohen: Josh Cohen
Gould: Pete Gould
Cohen: If we want new shared-mobility programs to be successful, public agencies can’t look at them in a silo without holistically looking at how the whole transportation ecosystem is meeting the needs of the community. That’s the challenge Pete Gould faces advising shared mobility companies on critical policy that impacts how they do business. You’ll hear how he does that coming up next on The Movement. Let’s go.
F: Mobility is an essential component to the cities of our future. To build this future, we need to do more than invest in technology; we need to invest in the people who will make the hard decisions necessary to create vibrant, equitable, and sustainable cities. Welcome to The Movement where we talk to the brave leaders who are effecting change in an effort to build a coalition of leaders who will make tomorrow real. Here is your host, TransLoc’s National Director of Policy, Josh Cohen.
Cohen: Pete Gould is the founding partner of Shared Mobility Strategies, a strategic policy firm that is helping clients shape the policy, regulatory, and on-the-ground future of transportation and urban mobility. He’s also spent time on the public side on Capitol Hill and the U.S. Department of Transportation. Actually one of the—I’m going to interrupt this just to say you’ve got one of these, you know, money shots on your website of, like, you on some private jet with Ray LaHood behind you. And, you know, some fancy person had to take that photo. But, anyway, that’s a nice shot there.
Cohen: And then he’s also spent time on the private side at Uber and as a mobility policy consultant and lobbyist. And then another interesting thing is that Pete’s also the cohost of The Mobility Podcast, so we’ll talk about that at some point too. So welcome to The Movement, Pete.
Gould: Thank you so much, Josh. It’s a pleasure to be on.
Cohen: All right. So let’s maybe get kicked off here with kind of just give us an introduction to Shared Mobility Strategies and kind of what the type of work that you’re doing and what your clients are like. Like, what kind of problems are you solving for them?
Gould: Sure. So, first, thank you for having me on. It’s a pleasure, and you and I go back actually to my Uber days ironically.
Cohen: That’s right.
Gould: So I’m happy to be on, and I love The Movement, and I strongly recommend everyone subscribe. So to your question on kind of what is Shared Mobility Strategies, so I started Shared Mobility Strategies in February 2016, which is now a scary-long time ago. And I started right after leaving Uber. I knew I wanted to stay in this space kind of at this fascinating nexus of transportation/urban policy meets technology-enabled private sector, you know, “Let’s deploy new ideas and services and companies.” It’s just a fascinating space to be in, time to be in.
And, you know, out of sheer dumb luck happened to have fallen into being in a place where I’d, you know, been working on transportation policy my whole career. Transportation policy until, you know, early mid—whatever decade that was called—the 2010s was roads, bridges [INDISCERNIBLE] funds and the railroads and stuff. And then towards my end of my time at DOT there you started to see more of this technology stuff. I remember being in a meeting with the folks from Waze when they first—you know, when they were pre-Uber acquisition and were explaining it. I was just kind like, “This is crazy and fascinating. Okay, cool idea.” And then Google buys them, and it’s now something that is an integral part of our lives.
And so, you know, it’s a fascinating space, and I was just, again, just lucky to be in the right place at the right time. And I wanted to stay there, because one of the things I really always felt and I kind of was able to really put my finger on it later was that, like, I always kind of felt that I was, like, too Uber for DOT and too DOT for Uber.
Gould: You know? And that there was a reason for that, that the two were—and I point to Uber, but it’s the industry at large. That between the public sector and the private sector, you know, in this space we were all working in and around each other and talking and working towards in and around the same things but were just completely—that we didn’t get each other and that it wasn’t going to actually work until we did. You know, that when we were not talking—and it wasn’t even just talking the same language; it was just understanding, you know, they were both in their own little kind of siloed approaches to things.
And so I knew there was a need there. I had no idea kind of what that meant in terms of a business, and it took a little while to figure that out and for kind of things to emerge in the market where it would work. But it’s been fascinating and allows me to kind of work in a number of different areas at different kind of intersections of this, you know, these spaces that has been a lot of fun. And so initially when I came out—and so Josh—for the listeners, Josh and I met because when I was at Uber doing transportation policy, he was with TransLoc, and we had done one of the first partnerships, and it was really about how do you integrate beyond—because the early Google Maps, you know, it was, “Here you go. Here is the time to take transit from where you are to want to go, and here is how the arrival time and cost for an Uber.”
Gould: And so they were seen as two different—it was two different options.
Gould: And TransLoc came out and was really great and had the, “Hey, we’ve got the way where you can take an Uber to X and then take transit,” and then it was an actual multi-modal trip. And so I was very excited, and we kind of were in constant contact of, you know, “What transit agencies can we do this?” And so that—I really thought that one of the big opportunities was going to be working with public sector clients helping them understand these new things and how, like, you know, it’s not like it’s always been in transit where, you know, especially kind of FTA dictates, “If you want the money, you know, if you buy this stuff, you’ve got to do X, Y, and Z.” It’s just an entirely different—and that was the approach early on to things like the first round of MOD where they’re like, “Hey, if you guys want in on this $2-million grant, you’re going to have to completely change your business model.”
Gould: And it was like, “No, then I’ll sit this one out.” And I felt that the public sector was actually going to be missing out on a lot of opportunities to basically just piggyback on these services to do the things they already were doing and save money and be able to apply that money to their core functions. And so I had tried that for a little while, and it just as a one-man shop, you know, not being able to bring a full consulting and [INDISCERNIBLE] and everything it wasn’t really working. And so where I found that there is a real need is in younger-stage startups in this space that are kind of large enough that this is a real thing and not just, “Here’s my idea,” but they are not at that stage where they’ve built out that whole in-house operations like they have at Uber, like they have at the scooter companies and at some of the larger autonomous vehicle companies.
So, like, in that phase of their life of, like, “Hey, we’ve—” You know, it was primarily engineer heavy and business development or finance heavy teams. And they’re like, “Yeah.” And they’re like, “You know, we feel like policy is going to be important.” It’s like, “Yeah, you’ve got a great idea that is walking into a heavily regulated space.”
Gould: And so a lot of what I do now is helping companies in that space and in that phase of their development, walking them through kind of—a lot of the work is actually internal of, “Okay, let’s not do this,” or, “Hey, we should do this, and this is good, and this is how you should present yourself. This is how you should interact with and coordinate with cities.” A lot of it too is because so many of these things are just entirely new, figuring out what it is in the law, and then if there are things where in this section of the law it actually is prevented because of X but not because that law was passed to prevent things like this but just because that was the law from 60 years ago and so helping them then work out what is the change you would need in going to a city council and all that.
Cohen: It sounds like for things like some of these clients that you mentioned the policy work that you’re doing is almost foundational to whether they can actually exist as a business. Right? So if they either don’t understand the current regulatory structure or misapply it or whatever, they may not even be able to have a business at all. Right? And so is that part of what you’re kind of getting at there?
Gould: Yeah. No, I mean, I think that one of the big things on this—you know, one of the kind of ironically good takeaways or changes that emerged from the early TNC battle days is that not only do the founders and the CEOs but, more importantly almost, their VCs now understand and appreciate and demand answers on, like, regulatory risk exposure.
Gould: You know, “I’m putting a lot of money into this. Is it going to be shut down tomorrow?” And so what that gives is there’s a lot more attention to and respect for and deference to the policy team than there normally had been in the past of, you know, that the ops team wins and the [INDISCERNIBLE] kind of like, “Hey, just—” kind of like the HR. You know, it’s no longer looked at the HR, like, “Hey, you really shouldn’t do that.” It’s like, “No, like, seriously, like stop the presses. We need to do X, Y, and Z first,” because, you know, there’s less of a thinking that, like, “Well, yeah. You can get away with it for six months, but it’ll set us back five years if not irreparably.”
Cohen: Yeah. And, you know, you’re seeing some of that. I think there was a story in San Francisco recently. There was some scooter company that kind of created some fake—I don’t even know what it was—certificate that—
Gould: [LAUGHS] A fake perm.
Cohen: Yeah, it was a permit. Yeah.
Gould: But the Chamber of Commerce has never heard of them.
Gould: Yeah, that’s an extreme example.
Cohen: Of course.
Gould: That is just outright fraud.
Cohen: Yeah. Don’t do that.
Gould: But I will say one of—there is the other key function that I play, is—and I learned a lot of this both from DOT but then in the early Uber days of, you know, in many cases—and you see this a lot particularly with AVs, with autonomous vehicles—because none of the rules really on the book in most places, especially kind of federal and all that were written with this in mind, even if the regulators and whatever really like it and want this, there’s a lot of times their hands are tied.
And so finding—you know, it’s not a skirting the law; it’s, “Okay, we want to do this, but how do we do this within the law?” You know, it involves kind of creativity and reading this so that, “Okay, but if we do this, then that actually does work, and doing it in a way that’s transparent so that we’re not—” you know, again, it’s not skirting the law; it is, “How do we mold our service to fit within the law in the short term so that we can then develop a regulatory system that actually makes sense?”
Cohen: Yeah. No, totally. Totally. So as you think about your experiences working with your private sector clients, what are you learning from them or what are they learning really from the public sector and how the public sector is embracing some of these mobility things that really didn’t exist 10, 15 years ago, AVs, TNCs, scooters, so forth?
Gould: Yeah. So, I mean, the big things we’re learning and are kind of the new reality is that the innovation honeymoon is over.
Gould: Like, in the early days many officials, especially elected officials, you know, really were very eager to be seen as innovative and forward thinking and kind of all the same ways that President Obama was seen as this, you know, great future, you know, young and innovative thing because he was embracing all things tech. As we’re seeing in that same space but we’re seeing a lot here, that just wrapping your arms around innovation is not going to close the deal for these companies. And so you really do have to show real benefits and also be able to address externalities and kind of concerns early. You know, so it wasn’t, “Oh, this is innovative. Let’s just see what happens.”
Gould: It’s, “Okay. Well, what are you doing about this?” You know, a lot of the lessons learned early on, you know, folks are having to address that sooner. And so it’s, you know, there’s a healthy angle to that that requires—that I think will hopefully avoid some of the unnecessary issues that we saw in the early days. And so that’s one of the big things that we’re seeing now, is that because teams get it, they’re now like, “Okay, so what do we need to do on X, Y, and Z?”
Cohen: Sure. Sure. So what about on the public sector side? What is the public sector still missing or what would you say to your friends that are still in the public sector as it relates to some of these new mobility things that maybe they’re not thinking about or not giving enough weight to?
Gould: I mean, so I’ll preface this with a sincere appreciation for the challenge they’re facing.
Gould: Institutions and this industry are designed and have always moved very slowly, in most cases for very good reason. You know, like when we talk about AVs, it’s not supposed to and therefore isn’t easy and quick to change and/or add or do new Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. You know, these are not things that are supposed to just get quickly tossed into a continuing resolution and, “We’ll just update—” You know, there’s a reason for that. It is safety focused and that requires in-depth input, data, tests, you know, and so—
And, again, even the processes and institutions by design are not fast, and so that makes it very difficult to keep up with so much change. You know, I mean, you look at the dockless stuff. It came out of nowhere not even that long ago. When did—you know, the bike—it started with the bikes, and that was—what—maybe three, three and a half years ago?
Gould: And then by the time cities scrambled and started creating permits and then the bike disappeared. Now it’s the scooters, and it’s like—
Cohen: Yeah. Isn’t that wild?
Gould: I’m very cognizant and appreciative of just the kind of feeling of, like, “You’ve got to be kidding me. Now it’s another one?”
Gould: That being said, I will say that the experience that many cities had or most cities had with the initial kind of introduction and the policy fights and/or battles with the TNCs has led to them, you know, to lawmakers and regulators learning a lot of important lessons. There’s also, to a certain extent—I will say, in some cases they’ve overlearned lessons, that they are so determined not to get steamrolled again that they might be killing things that are perfectly aligned with their long-term city policy objectives and all that and that they’re treating some things that otherwise I could easily see being a public sector idea that they’re funding and doing, they’re being treated as adversaries and very aggressively simply because it’s a private company and in particular tech companies.
Cohen: Sure. Yeah. So the pendulum has almost swung too far the other way, it sounds like.
Gould: Yeah. I mean, that’s what I could see. And I think what it really comes down to is, you know, starting with the premise of, like, “Okay. Is this something that is a good thing that we want, you know, if done responsibly?” And then always kind of the answer to that question should have a very strong kind of influence on the approach and the heaviness of the regulatory approach. You know, like when you talk about fees, you’re talking about adding additional requirements. You know, at some point you don’t want to hug something to death.
Cohen: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Gould: And I think the big one too is looking at with car2go disappearing, suddenly everyone is like, “Oh, that’s terrible. We love car2go. Car sharing is so great.” It’s like, “Okay. So let’s start from this point and walk back. If this thing disappears because it goes out of business but we really did want it, what were we doing and how were we—what were we charging and what were we demanding and what were we doing that made it impossible? And therefore is it so critical that if we’re not able to get everything of this, it’s worth it going out of business?”
Cohen: Yeah. No, and certainly, you know, obviously you have to look at it from the business side as well, which is, “What are they doing? Have they created a good business there?” and beyond the regulatory aspect. Right?
Gould: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. No, and then I think one other thing too along those lines is that the difference between the headline number from a fundraising round from VCs or a valuation and how it is then treated as if it, like you said, a money-making, profitable cash cow from the city’s perspective is very important. And because part of that is there like, “Oh. Well, these guys have all this money, so let’s—” and then there’s almost like a blaming, punishing, or more importantly just demanding that the private companies must fix and address things that cities and transit agencies themselves have failed to do for decades.
Gould: You know, and so it’s one of those, “You can’t do this unless you are fully and equally serving all areas and in particular mildly-underserved transit deserts.” And it’s like, “Well, shouldn’t we be demanding that the transit agency serves the transit desert too?” But, like—and, again, I’m not saying that equity is an unreasonable request; it is critical and important, but things like that of, “If you’re not addressing any of this, you’re out of here,” when you step back these are very—you know, many of these challenges are very hard.
And you see that in the city agency’s experience, that, “You can’t do this unless every one of these vehicles is shared by four people at the same time.” And it’s like, “We’ve been trying to get carpooling forever, so, like, if this is a way to try to enable that, we should be encouraging it. And how do we take action to support that?” rather than just, “Unless you’re doing it, you’re out.”
Cohen: Right. So it seems like addressing that from a more systemic basis as opposed to just kind of—
Gould: Just commanding.
Cohen: —you know, silo by silo with micromobility and AVs and so forth in different silos, kind of looking at that from a systemic basis, which is like, “How are we moving everyone around our community equitably and safely? And what is each silo’s, if you will, contribution to that?” Right?
Cohen: That’s a good point. So you kind of touched on this a little bit but on some of the challenges on the private sector side. So what can the private sector do better? Right? As you think about this from maybe the opposite perspective of what you just kind of put yourself in the public sector side, like, what can the private sector do better as it relates to engaging with the public sector?
Gould: Yeah. Well, I mean, just in general what the private sector in this space really needs to be doing is I think you’ve got to start with asking fundamental questions on the frontend and not launching and scaling until you have the real answer on that. You know, we’re seeing and throughout tech, not just in the transportation space, kind of, “What is the actual problem that you are addressing, and is this actually something new and a new way of addressing it or just—”
You know, think, for instance, WeWork. It’s like, “Well, what you’re really talking about is commercial real-estate subletting,” and if your solution is fancier offices and cheaper rent and you’re hemorrhaging money and then at the end it’s like, “Yeah. No, like, it’s a wildly unprofitable business,” it’s like, “Okay. So that’s just an existing business wildly subsidizing an unsustainable business model.” You know?
Gould: And I think in the transportation space the key here is, “What is the real challenge—like, is this a real challenge that is facing city-wide or a broader population, and is this actually a new approach to it?” so rather than, “Oh, I’ve got a thing that can do this, so, you know, we’ll start with that and then we’ll figure out who is going to pay for it or why it’s a good thing later.” And then I think it really does go to, like, how will this be sustainable as a business model both financially, you know, because, like, if you can’t kind of walk me through even a basic, back-of-the-envelope but, like, with reality included on the front end, then that’s not something you’re going to magically invent down the road once you’re huge.
Gould: You know, if you start with a bad business model and you scale it, you are just scaling losses.
Gould: And that, I think, is something that we’re going to see a lot of because you are by—you know, what you are trying to do is change the way people get around cities. And if you do that and it’s a completely BS, just wildly subsidized and then disappears, you’ve now changed and then taken—you know, like, you’re impacting other services, and then you disappear, and then people are left holding the bag. And, more importantly, now future attempts to do this are going to be seen skeptically.
Gould: And I think the other thing too is not only will it scale financially, but, like, does the actual thing, you know, which always sounds cool when you’re showing it with a hundred people or when you’re first beta testing it, but, like, “Okay, so now scale this out. Is that a good thing?” You know? And I think one of the good—you know, we’re seeing it with TNCs. It was awesome when it was black cars. You know, it was awesome when it was a small group. But then when everyone starts using it at the same rate and doing that stuff, it’s like, “Oh, wow. Actually this is a lot of cars on the road, and it’s driving down the wages for this,” and so there’s that. And then I think another great example is, like, the flying taxi. You know, they never really show the demo of, like, “Okay, so how does that look if it’s trying to move 10,000 of those at once?”
Gould: And it’s actually something—like, that’s not—you know, it’s cool for you, again, like when it was a black car service type thing; but if you’re telling me this is going to revolutionize transportation, that means a lot more people are going to be using it, and then a lot more of them. And then is that actually a good thing to have 15,000 of these things throughout the skyline? So.
Cohen: Yeah. No, it’s a fair question. It’s a fair question. So you’re based in D.C. A couple of weeks ago was the mecca for transportation nerds everywhere, The Transportation Research Board Annual Meeting in Washington, D.C. And so you were there; I was not. What were some of the highlights?
Gould: A number of things. A, probably my favorite part about TRB is that it is just a kind of convening. And it’s not just TRB; there’s TransportationCamp beforehand, which is great.
Gould: It quickly becomes the longest week in terms of exhaustion, but like in a good way. And so it was just great to have everyone together. What I found my big kind of takeaways was there seemed to be a lot more realism. There was less kind of—especially on things like autonomous vehicles, there was less complete overt pessimism or the overly pessimistic view than I might have expected. There was, “Okay. No, like, this is hard, and it’s going to take some time, but it’s still a good thing. And, you know, here are the things.”
There was also a very good emphasis on starting to build real collaborative efforts between a city, multiple private entities in this space, and, like, “Let’s tackle an issue and let’s work it together,” kind of like what we were discussing earlier. And so that, I thought, was a real positive. But, yeah, there was less complete BS, you know, hype and less piling on, you know, “See. I told you this would never work.” It was much more of, “Okay, like, we’ve all got work to do. What’s everybody’s role, and what are we actually doing to get moving towards it?”
Cohen: Yeah. That’s refreshing, because I think that that is part of the tiresome part of some of this. Kind of the technology side of it is when it goes a little bit too optimistically in one direction, and certainly—you know, you kind of acknowledged this a little bit earlier—that on the public sector side too the equivalent of that is this kind of, like, “Innovation. We’re going for that.” Right?
And, you know, you acknowledged before that that honeymoon is over. So it sounds like overall on both sides this kind of recognition of kind of maybe the appropriate place for technology or the appropriate place for innovation is kind of—we’re kind of maybe finding the right middle ground there on both sides, the public sector and the private sector.
Gould: Hmm. Yeah. No, and it’s—yes, I think that that’s a very helpful thing. And what’s always heartening at TRB too is seeing the growing interest and enthusiasm and engagement of young, urban-planning kind of college kids, graduate students that are all fascinated and digging into and want to be in transportation. You know?
Gould: And now you combine that with all of this new data and all the options, and there’s a bright—you know, I’m excited for a bright future of kind of getting some of the smartest kids in our country focused on real problems, real solutions, which is always something that excited me kind of from the beginning of this space, that we can either be sending our best and brightest to Wall Street to make more complicated loans that shouldn’t be made, or we can have them trying to address urban mobility, you know, autonomy, all this other stuff.
And so that is a great takeaway from all of this, you know. Everything else aside, having smart people and private money digging in on things that are really important and that have always been kind of the center of what I’ve worked on is always a great sign.
Cohen: That’s awesome. Let’s maybe wrap up with maybe an introduction to The Mobility Podcast and kind of what you try to cover on that and maybe even if you’re willing to identify one of your favorite guests or one of your favorite episodes that you’ve tackled.
Gould: Yeah, so the podcast, The Mobility Podcast, which you can get on any of the platforms, iTunes, the Google thing, Spotify, you know, all those things, that is just—or on Twitter is @MobilityPodcast, and our website too is MobilityPodcast.com. It’s myself, Greg Rogers from Securing America’s Future Energy or SAFE, and Greg Rodriguez from Stantec. We’ve been doing it now for two, maybe three years now. And it started like every podcast starts, with a bunch of people sitting around and shooting the breeze and saying, “Hey, everyone else would love to hear this.”
Gould: “You know, because we’re so fascinating.” You know, but it was more that there was a lot of talk from the tech and industry world of hyping stuff, and then there was, like, the TRB world, and there was little of that in-between. Kind of as we talked about with the consulting side, is that it was—and that there was so much new stuff and so much change, so much development that it was almost a full-time job keeping up with it. And so we imagined it as a way to kind of bridge the policy world and the kind of tech world and cities and all that and just see where it took us.
And then we quickly, you know, after doing several episodes where it was literally just us kind of talking about what was going on in the world, really started just bringing on people that were more interesting and fascinating and just doing it more interview based. And so we talk to people from private sector, cities, mayors, agencies, what’s called academics and research folks in this, and just coalitions, and just all things. And I’ve just found that, like, I come out of every episode having learned so much more than I’ve contributed.
Gould: And I think that, like, all of our folks come away with that, that it’s a conversation and learning too where, you know, you talk to smart people and ask them questions and kind of have a real discussion, because so much in this space is not a ask-question-give-answer. A lot of it we’re figuring this all out ourselves, and so that’s just been a really fun exercise and project that has been very lucky to have two great cohosts, and we’ve kept it going so. And then as far as my favorite, not a chance, but—
Cohen: Yeah, it’s like saying, “Who is your favorite kid?” Right?
Gould: [LAUGHS] Yeah, seriously. No, but we’ve had a lot—and it’s always just fascinating because—you know, I will say one that I really enjoyed mostly because I had low expectations coming in not because of them but because of their role was we had Finch Fulton on from USDOT. And usually when you bring on a high-level person you almost know the talking points you’re going to get, and it was just a fascinating, “Yeah. No, like, we’re grappling with these, and here is what we’re thinking, and here is where we’re looking to go.” And it was, like, a very real and honest and open conversation that was just really helpful.
And so, you know, admitting where they’re like, “Yeah. No, that’s a tough question. Here are the contributing factors, and we’re working through it, and we always want to hear more from industry,” and it was just—that one was, I thought, really fascinating. We were down in Orlando for the AV Symposium. And then we’ve had a bunch too with, you know, folks like Robin Chase, Susan Shaheen, you know, people who have been at this before it was sexy.
Cohen: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Gould: And just, you know, they’ve learned a lot of lessons that people are relearning over and over again and have a very good, big picture approach to it, so that all has just been really fascinating. And so I’m not picking winners; those are ones that stick out, but we’ve had just a number of other folks where you just—you bring in a new angle to these things that otherwise becomes a circular and repetitive conversation. And it really does just make you think about, like—you’re like, “Oh, I’ve never thought about that element of something.” That has been just a really valuable kind of addition to my understanding of the industry and the problems we face and how we should approach them.
Cohen: Awesome. Awesome. Where can folks learn more about Shared Mobility Strategies and the work you’re doing?
Gould: Sure. So the website is SharedMobilityStrategies.com, and I’m on Twitter at @SharedMobilityS, and—yeah—or you can just email me, just Pete@SharedMobilityStrategies.com, and I’m always happy and eager to connect with folks. And then, again, The Mobility Podcast is MobilityPodcast.com or on any of the kind of however you get podcasts and also on Twitter at @MobilityPodcast.
Cohen: Yeah, it’s a great listen and a wide range of different guests on the technology and the policy side. It really is a fun one. So thanks so much, Pete. I really appreciate you taking the time to introduce us a little bit to your work and share some of the lessons you’ve learned, and I look forward to hearing more as things progress. Thank you.
Gould: Absolutely. Josh, thank you for having me, and always a pleasure to see you again and talk.
F: Thanks for listening. If you like what you hear, head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. You can find out more at TransLoc.com. Be sure to join us next week for another episode of The Movement.