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Episode 81 guests Ariel Ward and Brytanee Brown

In a complex world, we have to acknowledge that we are not, as activist Audre Lorde said, living single issue lives, meaning our solutions can’t be one-dimensional either. Ariel Ward and Brytanee Brown of At the Intersections share that the equitable solutions lie at the “epicenter of our complexities.”


Cohen: Josh Cohen
Ward: Ariel Ward
Brown: Brytanee Brown

Cohen: Today on The Movement podcast we have an empowering story of a group of women who are sharing the narratives of women of color with the world in a way that they know will be heard and honored. You’ll meet two of the women, Ariel Ward and Brytanee Brown, behind At The Intersections, a new publication that prioritizes mobility over modality. Let’s go.

F: Mobility is an essential component to the cities of our future. To build this future, we need to do more than invest in technology; we need to invest in the people who will make the hard decisions necessary to create vibrant, equitable, and sustainable cities. Welcome to The Movement where we talk to the brave leaders who are effecting change in an effort to build a coalition of leaders who will make tomorrow real. Here is your host, TransLoc’s National Director of Policy, Josh Cohen.

Cohen: My guests today are Ariel Ward and Brytanee Brown, two of the women behind At The Intersections, a new publication centering the narratives, experiences, and expertise of Black, Brown, and Indigenous people in transportation and mobility. Welcome to The Movement, Ariel and Brytanee.

Ward: Hi.

Cohen: So maybe let’s just start with the essence of who you are and how you came to be sitting with me today on this podcast. So maybe, Ariel, let’s start with you.

Ward: All right. Essence of who I am? I feel like that—

Cohen: Yeah, let’s get to it. [LAUGHTER]

Ward: [INDISCERNIBLE]—but, yeah. I am a transportation engineer and planner by day and, I usually say, all things creative by night. I’m a very proud alumna of Howard University, and I’m really inspired by community, compassion, and culture; and so that shows up in pretty much everything that I do. I have a background in community-based transportation planning. And one of the things that I have sought to understand is how urban planning and engineering can be used to generate solutions in communities where it once furthered and honestly still does further inequity.

And when I am not wearing my all-things-transportation hat I do work in service of Black women and girls. And so I co-curate spaces for Black women and girls to breathe freely and to come and exhale; so I do that through something that we call creative wellness. So there’s a lot of different things that I am interested in. And all of it, it’s inevitable that it shows up in my work.

Cohen: Yeah, as it should. I mean, we can’t turn that off. Brytanee, what about you?

Brown: Yeah, so a transportation planner; I’ll say people planner. I recently said Black people over plans, and I think I want that to be my new tagline hashtag.

Cohen: Mm-hmm.

Brown: And I’m usually thinking about people at every stage of the process, from planning to implementation. And I’ve had a lot of success in my career because of that. I center people, especially the healing of racialized people, through the lens of transportation, arts, culture, and economic development. I’ve worked to create just mobility outcomes for communities and act in change that responds to their mobility needs and lived experience and ultimately, you know, wanting to make government accessible for folks who have been locked out of the decision-making processes that impact them.

Urban planning for grad school; very, very, very proud Afro major. That is where I get my grounding, learning and reading Du Bois and Mary Pattillo and Elizabeth Wilkerson as my frames of reference in how I do my planning work. I grew up in South Berkeley, and I love where I’m from, from the Bay Area, and really saw my city and my region through the transit system, through BART and through AC Transit. And so—yeah—I’m just really excited to be here today and have this conversation about At The Intersections. I also am currently at the Thrivance Group where I get to do intersectional planning with a lot of brilliant, awesome people. So, yeah, excited to be here.

Cohen: So you kind of talked about this a little bit there at the end there, Brytanee, but maybe let’s introduce our audience to At The Intersections. And I became familiar with this a couple months ago, I think, when Ariel kind of debuted kind of a post kind of introducing At The Intersections and introducing the group of women that’s behind this. But maybe give us a little bit more context there, kind of how y’all came together and what you’re really trying to elevate here.

Ward: How we came together was actually an amazing experience and really key to how this even came to be. We all met a transportation conference that we—we were brought together by one of our coeditors now, Nicole Payne, to be on this panel that actually was called, I think, “At the Intersections of Transportation & Equity.” And it was a really incredible experience for all of us because we decided going into it that we were going to speak really candidly. We didn’t want to have your traditional equity panel where it’s like, “This is what inequity is, and this what institutional racism was,” and we really wanted to speak to the work that we were doing and just the ways that we show up in that work. And so that’s how we actually all met. Brytanee, what were some of your experiences or takes from how we came together?

Brown: Yeah, the conference was The National Association For City Transportation Officials, NACTO. And we decided that we were going to do a panel that really emphasized our work and our approach. And even with that we decided to—we were very intentional about the setup of the presentation physically. We had folks of color sit in the front, and they were the only ones who were allowed to ask questions, and asked the White folks to sit in the back. We wanted to let the people of color who were in the room, Black, Indigenous, people of color be able to participate in the conversation without the White gaze.

And, you know, we are very intentional about every space in which we create because as planners that’s our kind of expertise, and we know that the built environment impacts us. And so even something as small as a conference, the setup of the space is critical. So, yeah. I think that’s the piece that I’d like to insert, is that we came together physically at this conference and decided to just continue to work together because the energy was so high.

Ward: We were looking to coauthor—I don’t know if it was like—it was like a paper of sorts for the, like, APA “State of Transportation.” And we were working on the process, and we just kind of decided that we had a lot of questions. We were like, “Who gets to read this? Who has access to it? Is it free? Is there a paywall?” And as we were asking all of these questions of the entity that would be publishing it, we kind of just decided that we wanted to have our own space, our own platform in which we didn’t have to ask those questions, in which it is inherently accessible and open to all people and really centers our voices in a way that we feel is representative. I think, what you’re seeing right now is this influx of demand for Black voices, which we know have always been inherently valuable. But there’s a lot of writers and editors and publications that honestly, like, they don’t have the range to handle the narratives of women of color with care.

And so as we grow in this process I talk a lot about doing language in homage to who I call the Tonies, so Toni Cade Bambara and Toni Morrison, but as we grow we’ll be focused on what it means to give language to ourselves and to others and what it means to care for it as well. And so we hope to support women in finding and loving the sound of their own voice. And so how we’re doing that right now with At The Intersections is that it’s a platform centering the voices and narratives of Black, Brown, Indigenous women of color in the mobility industry and beyond. And right now it lives as a publication on Medium, so capturing our words through essays, op-eds, interviews, even poetry. But I think we all have, you know, a bit of a hunch that it’s going to grow beyond that hopefully.

Cohen: For sure. Brytanee, you mentioned intersectionality when you talked about your work with Thrivance Group, and certainly At The Intersections kind of speaks to this. Would one of you be willing to just introduce intersectionality kind of as a framework as it relates to Dr. Crenshaw’s kind of research and kind of how that work kind of factors into how you’re looking at things and the lens through which you’re looking at this?

Brown: So I love a good definition. So I just googled it, and everybody can Google “intersectionality.” You know, it’s the study of the intersections between different systems of oppression and domination, including the privileges that accompany gender, race, ethnicity, socio-economic class, religion, ability, sexual orientation, etcetera. I also am a student and daughter of bell hooks. And, you know, bell hooks talks about White supremacy, patriarchy, capitalism. And together those two things, I think, really have shaped me as a planner. And I don’t know if this will relate, but the question that you’re bringing up or what comes to mind with this question that you’re asking is around—as a practitioner I’ve always wanted to plan for Black people.

I see our experiences as the norm. I’ve been incredibly disheartened by transportation because it actually others us and says, you know, “We haven’t figured out what works best for you all. We haven’t studied it. We haven’t dedicated any rigor to really understanding your movement, what works well, what doesn’t work well, based on your lived experience,” so based on—and this is where intersectionality comes into play—you know, based on who you need to go see in order to access social cohesion. Right?

So, like, let’s look at your family. Where do they live? Where does your grandmother live? Let’s look at where you need to go get groceries. And this is so small, but, like, I know growing up my grandmother, she did not—we didn’t just go to one grocery store; we went to about three grocery stores because we knew we wanted—we would go to the meat market on 45th, and we’d go to the bigger-box stores to get the more generic items. And, I think, as a planner it’s really important to understand each person’s experience. And we know that Black folks—it’s our lived experience, and then let’s combine that with our systems of oppression.

And so we have because of the—the neighborhoods that we live in have been set up for us to essentially not survive, and so we’ve built systems of resiliency in. And I think we’re still trying to figure out a better word for resilience because, I think, it necessitates us surviving and not thriving, but, again, we’ve built systems, incredibly innovative systems to thrive. And I’m really interested in supporting the mobility and uplifting those stories to kind of support that, the mobility of people who have figured out a way to continue to live despite the fact that there have been major infrastructure projects that have locked them out of resources.

Cohen: Oh, yeah.

Brown: During my time as a transportation planner for the City of Oakland, I started the East Oakland Mobility Action Plan. And that work is continuing on by some really incredible folks at the East Oakland Collective and a number of other community partners. But we got really interested in mobility. And we’ll get into that because we’re going to talk about our series “Mobility Over Modality.” But I think we got interested in really looking at all modes, transit, cars, biking, walking, rather than siloing people into their individual modes because we as planners find that exciting and attractive and that is our way of being. So, I think, intersectionality for me is the ethos; it’s the approach. And, yeah. I know Ariel has a lot to say about this as well—[INDISCERNIBLE].

Cohen: Yeah.

Ward: I think that—and thank you for tapping me in. [LAUGHTER] I’m just thinking about all the different threads of the conversation that we’ve had already and how all of it is just in concert with each other. But thinking back to Kimberlé Crenshaw’s TED Talk on intersectionality, it starting as a legal definition and judges making these determinations not seeing how all of these different identities can lead to compounded harm.

Brown: Mm-hmm.

Ward: And I think that even though it was taken in a legal perspective, you see the same exact thing happening in planning—right—where people aren’t considering how if you’re Black and your disabled and you have a differing gender identity, like, what are the levels of compounded harm that they have to essentially interact with in the built environment or in their transportation system. And, I think, At The Intersections, what we’re saying is that essentially, like, true equitable innovation happens at the epicenter of our complexities. It happens when we wrestle with the contradictions.

And I joke around. Another one of our coeditors, Margo Dawes, talks about how nuance is the norm at At The Intersection. And so, like, we’re saying that we’re not shying away from the cultural, the experiences, the oddities, the things that really make us who we are. We’re not hiding those parts of ourselves, our identities that are often not welcome in White-dominant spaces, and we’re bringing them front and center and saying that these things are central to the work. And when Brytanee was talking earlier about, like, who she studies, I think about this a lot because even in planning school, like, who I study is very different than who I was reading while I was in school.

Cohen: Hmm. Yeah.

Ward: Even, like, Black feminist writers and Black feminist thinkers inform so much of my work, and even as we talk about intersectionality I’m thinking about Audre Lorde and how she’s like, “There is no such thing as a single-issue struggle, because we don’t live single-issue lives.”

Cohen: Yes, yes, yes.

Ward: And I think that that, you know, speaks directly to that intersectionality piece.

Cohen: Yeah. I think that’s a great way to frame it. I love that little frame that you just mentioned right there, because I think that really does encompass it in a way that, I think, we’re more than just a monolithic definition, and that impacts everything we do. So I really thank you for sharing that. I want to maybe dig in a little bit. There’s a post a couple of months ago where there was this line, and I’ll read the line here; quote, “Transportation planning is intentionally skipping dinner to focus on desert and claiming we’re full. Meanwhile our communities are left malnourished,” end quote.

And I want to just—like, you know, I’ve sat with that line for a couple of months now because I was, like, “Wow, that just—that is a really just powerful way to kind of communicate kind of some of the challenges that are inherent in transportation planning,” both of which, you know, y’all as transportation planners are kind of seeing on a regular basis. I’d love for you maybe to kind of give a little bit more context behind that.

Ward: Yeah. I think it goes, like, right back to what we were just saying. And what I really love about that piece or that series is that it was coauthored by the editorial team. And that was such a magical process, like, the five of us just sitting with each other and really writing out what we had to say. So I know that Bryt is definitely going to have to jump in on this one as well, but I think we’re going—speaking back to the siloed nature of transportation and particularly modal-based planning, if you think about it, you need dinner. Right?

Cohen: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ward: And that’s where most of your primary nutrition is, but, you know, broccoli and baked chicken is not as exciting as, like, salted caramel gelato. So once you’ve had your gelato, you’re good. Right? No need to go back to those essential nutrients that maybe you didn’t need them, but there’s an entire community who was hungry for that, that meal. And so with our series we’re essentially saying that communities need to be fed; they need a balanced diet; and when we disregard the nuances in the implications of our work, we end up with one-dimensional solutions. Right? We end up with solutions that are representative of people living single-issue lives, which we know that they don’t live. And so you have things such as the call to ban all cars or focusing on cycling outside of the greater context of, you know, the context greater mobility, and that is usually to the detriment of Black and Brown people.

And I remember—I think it was before Nicole and I had even met, Nicole Payne who is also one of the coeditors. I remember she tweeted, “People of color and low-income people carry the failures of the mobility industry on their backs.” And that to me was just so incredibly profound. Like, almost lost for words even thinking about how hard that hit me, because it is the truth, and I was like, “If I were to even think—like, try to give examples of that, that would probably take the rest of our conversation.” But, you know, essentially we’re saying that modal frameworks that don’t center the embodiment of the experiences of Black and Brown people and all of our bodies, you know, whether that is disabled bodies, whether that’s trans bodies, whatever bodies we’re showing up in, we’re calling for an end to that in the industry. And so, you know, I think that Bryt has spoken to that about, you know, how she sees planning for, like, Black people and how the industry hasn’t really done that. So I’m going to tag her in here. But that is my initial synopsis of, like, where we’re hoping to go.

Cohen: Yeah.

Brown: Mm-hmm. Beautifully said. To that end, transportation is a utility, and it’s essential for our access to basic necessities. And I’ve always saw myself stepping into transportation planning as my job really—my role really is to increase access to transportation. And that requires an agnostic approach to modes. But I saw this culture of really promoting and uplifting and even shaming people for their choices. You know, and that really didn’t sit well with me. It turned—because it feels—I could see how people see it as harmless to promote biking and walking, because it has technically some environmental implications. Right?

Cohen: Yeah.

Brown: Like, a car, a bicycle, and walking, and pollution, you know, the correlation is there. Right? So one can say that, but at the same time, for people who are the most impacted by our car industry, by the construction of highways and freeways, those people, you know, they’re the ones who are relegated to driving cars. And I also—in the Bay Area I saw—we talk a lot about the suburbanization of poverty and resegregation. And it just—I struggled how it was lost on people that folks are having to drive because they cannot afford to live in this—

Cohen: Yeah. There’s no choice, yeah.

Brown: They cannot afford to live in the city. And I myself know people, have people in my life who have been priced out of the neighborhoods that they’ve grown up in and have decided—not decided, but for the sake of their families needed to leave the city and seek places that are more affordable but then still need to drive, still need to drive to access the socio-cultural aspects of their lives, so, you know, their churches, their family homes, places that provide them with a sense of comfort. And I just—you know, one night I had a—I just was, like, “Wait. We’re not going to build any more parking lots? People are still driving. I don’t know who we’re planning for. There are still a lot of people in our communities that need cars.”

And I’ll say this, and I don’t know how directly related it is, but I was thinking about this conversation that I had with an engineer. And they said, “Engineers plan for current conditions. Planners plan for the future.” And that always sits with be because this idea that planners are different and we tend to—I have a lot of engineering—and Ariel is one of those engineering friends of mine. [LAUGHTER] And I think planners tend to stick up their nose at engineers because they don’t see them as imaginative. And yet I’ve had those same unimaginative conversations with planners who can’t fathom that we can plan for a bunch of modes that impact or really fit the lived experiences of people. So, I think, the mobility over modality is really speaking to, like, our frustration of this lack of care, consideration, and, quite frankly, erasure of people.

Ward: Yeah.

Brown: Yeah. So—yeah.

Ward: That makes me think of—I, like, absolutely—there’s a couple of, like, planner, like, sayings that I can’t stand, honestly.

Cohen: Oh, let’s get them out. Let’s do it. Let’s do it.

Ward: All right.

Brown: [LAUGHS]

Ward: This is what we did on our panel too; we did our unpopular opinions, so that’s what we’re known for, At The Intersections. [LAUGHTER] So one is, like, “Streets for people, not cars.” Cars don’t drive themselves yet. There are people in those cars, and those people have stories. So, I think, that you’re beginning the conversation with erasure—right—not recognizing that there are people driving those cars. It’s not that we’re saying that we want to perpetuate auto-dominated cultures or industries, but we’re actively asking, when don’t kind of sit with the complexity, sit with the tension, then who is harmed in the process? Who is erased in the process when you just decide, “Okay. Well, cars are bad now, so we don’t need those”?

Cohen: Yeah. I’m not a psychologist or anything like that, but I imagine it’s human nature to try and simplify things as much as possible. Right? And so, I think, we try to just minimize all of these complexities as much as possible. But I think what you’re highlighting here is that when you do that you intentionally or unintentionally don’t actually get at the root issue and don’t actually solve the real problems because you’re so busy abstracting away all of that tension, all of that, you know, nuance, if you will, that’s really at the intersections, if you will. So that’s a really important point.

I want to get tactical here for a minute. I know, Brytanee, you worked on a project with Oakland DOT that, I think, was one where you were able to center some different voices. And I really want to kind of let you introduce that project—I believe it’s called the Scraper Bikeway on 90th Street—because I really want our audience to kind of understand that doing it the way y’all did it there was not only the right thing to do but it actually made the project better. So would you mind introducing that project a little bit and sharing kind of the process you went through for that?

Brown: Yeah, it’s one of those projects that really changed my career. It was incredibly complex. And I got a nudge from—before it was fully implemented and we were in the kind of redesign phase, I got a nudge from one of our coeditors to showcase and talk about the project at the conference we were talking about earlier as well as specifically at the panel. And I got a really good response from the audience. And it reenergized me. And during one of those—during the conference, during the panel, I streamed a short clip of “Tell Me When To Go” by E-40. And it’s a song that was the anthem for young people in the Bay Area for about 10 years. And parts of the video were shot at Bookers Liquor Store on 90th Avenue, so the artist in me wanted people to see the movement that took place on that street in Oakland. You know, people were walking; they were dancing; they were driving. And that is what mobility looks like to me, Black bodies moving in the streets, affirming their identities as young people, as artists, culture bearers. That is what 90th Avenue is about.

So this project, you know, was supposed to transcribe our history, our lived experience, our music, and our culture into the earth. And, you know, just to kind of talk briefly about the project because I love the process and so I tend to focus on the process, the project itself, it’s a center-running bike lane. It’s painted orange with the scraper bike logo. And so the paint is methyl methacrylate, MMA, and the wheels are thermoplastic. And they’re multicolored wheels to represent the multicolored wheels that are actually on the Scraper Bike Team’s bikes. So it’s a pretty resilient design because of the MMA and because of the thermoplastic.

There are bollards at the intersection nodes, and the funding came from our paving program. So it included—the project incorporates upgraded crosswalks, it adds crosswalks, it upgrades the existing curb ramps, and it adds curb ramps. And the designs and renderings were developed by Andrew Saphon [ph] and Gloria Chagnon [ph] who were interns at the time at OakDOT, so I definitely to let folks know that. As a planner on the project, we were talking to residents about it. You know, we invited the Scraper Bike Team into the process, because it was a street that was really important and special to them. During the implementation phases, we realized that we did not have a maintenance plan. And I’ll talk about that a little later, but our response and our intervention was community cleanup.
So we did monthly cleanups where we actually physically picked up the bollards with community members. Ariel joined a couple of times. And it was a way for us to talk about the design. It’s still not complete, and we decided that, you know, this isn’t a quick build; this is our opportunity to show what’s possible, and at the same time that possibility can be interpreted in many different ways. So we decided to kind of stick around, and through that we were able to identify some community stewards. Really quickly, I’ll say, I’d like to offer some lessons learned and recommendations.

Cohen: Yes, please. Yeah.

Brown: I truly believe, in areas of our cities where we’re committing investment, where we’re saying we’re going to invest, in places that have been underinvested we should really think about multi-phased projects that allow us to test the viability and impact. We also need to be thinking about the civil issues. I have a couple of colleagues in this industry that agree and have really kind of opened my eyes to that. Within weeks of repaving the street, rainwater was pooling near the crosswalks. So really understanding as we’re repaving, which is nice, there are utility upgrades that need to happen, and there’s a lot of invisible issues. So that is something that I offer, to really consider the civil issues if we’re going to be doing impactful, creative work, community programming. And so we wanted to at some point—and hopefully this will still be a possibility—have the opportunity to actually unveil the street once it was complete and to invite residents into the street to showcase the possibilities of this center-running bike lane.

And then also the role of the police and the use of certain facilities to further terroristic projects. So, you know, at one point the police were parking in the center bike lane, in the middle of the street, and we did not have a sound response to that. And so really being aware of how the police might see—you know, just what is the role of the police and how might they view the project once it’s on the ground and how might they use it. And a couple other things as far as, you know, sensitivity and beyond sensitivity, honestly, because I think—and I have colleagues in the field who say, you know, “People from the communities need to be planning their communities.” Dr. Destiny Thomas in discussing the reclassification of civil service, because Oaklanders, they don’t really know what’s going on, and so having those conversations and—yeah, just kind of being able to have those conversations and approaching it with a level of sensitivity. I think that can only happen from people who actually live in the community.

And the last thing that I’ll say is—and this is also—I’m pulling this out of Dr. Destiny Thomas’s article about reparations in the build environment; 90th Ave is perpendicular, runs perpendicular to the bus rapid transit system that’s being built. It’s a $216-million project. And it’s had a negative—it promised to have a negative impact on community during construction, but East Oaklanders have really beared the burden of that project. Traffic is stalled. Seniors are crossing rubble. There are makeshift drawbridges for folks who need to access their meds. And so what would it look like to give every one in East Oakland a universal basic income for the duration of that project so that we could build trust in the community as we decide, as we commit, and actually implement that infrastructure that we said we were going to implement as a result of our racial equity work that we say that we’re doing? So just a couple of lessons learned. It’s a project that is really close to my heart, and it’s not complete, but I think that it is a really good case study.

Cohen: Well, I want to just do one more thing here. For those of our audience who aren’t familiar with scraper bikes—because I think that’s actually an important kind of piece of this, because this is really kind of a work of art that these bikes are kind of modified and personalized in a way. Can you speak to that a little bit just to kind of help our audience kind of picture this as maybe not just the bike you might just picture just from the local bike shop? But this is actually kind of more like moving art almost. Right?

Brown: Yeah. I would encourage folks to visit their website, the And they have a bunch of videos out there. I’ll say that I started to work with them because we were wanting to partner with organizations that were working with folks in the community already around bike education and bike access. And so they not only work with young people to customize their bikes; they also offer free bike repair through partnership with the Oakland Public Library. And, surprisingly enough, the genesis of that organization was because of the scraper car culture and, you know, folks not having the resources to be able to buy a car and buy the rims.

And so young people would get bikes and then customize them to resemble the scraper cars. We don’t even call them scraper cars; they’re called scrapers. So, yeah, like, that’s also interesting to note too, that as much as we are in this industry anti-car, one of our groups that we love to bring to the table, their genesis comes from their love and their appreciation of their culture and of our culture, and cars are kind of embedded in that.

Cohen: That’s great. We’re running a little short on time, so I want to just give y’all an opportunity to share where can folks learn more about At The Intersections and subscribe to your curated musings from this group of great women.

Ward: So they can, for right now, definitely find us on Medium, so We also have a Twitter handle as well, @AtTheIntersect; so we’re @AtTheIntersect on Twitter. And you can also email us, especially if you are a woman of color writer interested in contributing to our publication, and that is You’re welcome to reach out to us about writing opportunities, about sponsorship opportunities, about mentorship opportunities, any questions. You can find us on any of those platforms, and then you can also find us on our personal Twitters as well or LinkedIn.

Cohen: Awesome. I really appreciate not only you taking the time to share a little bit today for our audience, but also just the work you’re doing kind of at a macro level and more importantly the reason why you’re doing it, to help us all kind of sit in that tension a little bit in the middle of those intersections and really acknowledge the connection that we all have together there and that we need to pay attention to all of those pieces if we’re going to be successful. So thank you both for all the work you’re doing. Thank you to your coeditors there at At The Intersections, and keep up the great work.

Brown: Yes.

Ward: Can we just shout them out for a second?

Cohen: Yes, please.

Ward: At The Intersections team consists of myself, Ariel Ward—

Brown: Brytanee Brown. [LAUGHS]

Ward: —Amina Yasin, Margo Dawes, and Nicole Payne.

Cohen: Great. Great women doing some great work. At The Intersections, check it out on Medium. Thank y’all so much.

Brown: Thank you.

Ward: Thank you so much for having us.

F: Thanks for listening. If you like what you hear, head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. You can find out more at or follow Josh Cohen on Twitter at @CohenJP. Be sure to join us next week for another episode of The Movement.